Curse

Winterclaw · Oct 19, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

In a game like GW or GW2 when it comes out, skill balance is everything. If one skill isn't properly tested and balanced we end up with SF sassis griefing people in PvP. From what I've read about GW2, it'll have all new skills, which is good and bad. It's good because we will have a fresh set of skills to work with and hopefully they'll be balanced. It's bad because we'll have a lot of unknowns and that we'll have a ton of new skills that needs to be balanced.

Look at Nightfall. In the previous two games, anet had over a year to get some testing done on their planned skill sets. We still had IWAY pop up, but I suppose things like that happen. But with nightfall we had imba-city. I'll refer to Ensign's post on balance for people who are curious as to what I'm talking about. Now that Anet has 2 or so years to get it right I'm hoping we won't see the same kind of problems, but it also leads me to suspect there is a flaw in Anet's business design.

Balancing skills takes time and it also probably takes multiple tries to get it right. Look at the conjure element spells. They seem to be rebalanced every 4-6 months and they've been around since the original game. However Anet isn't designed to give the balance team time to work. Think about it. They need a new product out every 6-8 months. That means by the time one game is shipped, whoever is in charge of skills is probably busy working on the next set of skills. So that means whoever is in charge of skills essentially is doing two jobs at once: coming up with a balanced set of new skills and trying to rebalance the existing ones while everyone is crying for a buff to this and a nerf to that. As a result we get a number of old skills that are negelected, some that have to be nerfed to the point of uselessness and forgotten about by the dev team, and skills for future products that are out of wack and further perpetuating the problem.

I hope I'm not going too far out on a limb by saying the current system of skill balancing isn't working as well as it could. I'm a little optimistic about GW2 because in theory the devs will be able to learn from past mistakes to a degree, but unless they change whatever happened to make Nightfall as imbalanced as it is, a new game might just end up being a power-creep continuation of GW1. How they are going to give 10 classes all new sets of skills and make them all work is beyond me. Likewise, I'm not sure how they are going to make sure all skill lines will be useful. For example, smiting monks have been nerfed since proph and healing monks only really are good for LoD in the current enviroment, making them one trick ponies. Water magic is good for snares, but lacks the utility that makes most people want to take a utility line. Pets have always been a waste simply because you have a quarter of your skill bar taken up just to bring one with you and even when you have one, they aren't all that great and take forever to level. Etc.

It just seems like there are too many skills and not enough balance. In order for the game to work, we need enough varity in skills so that we aren't all playing the same skill bar, but it also becomes a case where Anet seems to be wasting time on too many skills that are underpowered or useless. GW1 has a number of skills that could use a little work on, but it seems unlikely that they'll get it.

Sekkira · Oct 19, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

What is your point?

quickmonty · Oct 19, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

The logistics of balancing every possible combination of skills is staggering. Over time and play certain combinations are found to be overpowering, and balances have to be made. On the other hand some skills are rarely used and they are buffed so as to make them more useful.

BlackSephir · Oct 19, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

What is your point?

Different skills for pve and pvp in GW 2 = uber balance ;p

Sekkira · Oct 19, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Different skills for pve and pvp in GW 2 = uber balance ;p

Why not just make two separate games then?

Edit: On top of that, it doesn't solve anything. You still need to balance the PvP skills.

Winterclaw · Oct 19, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

What is your point?

1. That it'd be better for us players if we expected slightly less skills in GW2 so Anet doesn't have to waste time making filler skills so all classes have an equal number of skills.

2. That I'd really like it if Anet bothers including a skill or line of skills that they put the necessary time into making sure the skill or skill line works and doesn't break things. For example I don't think that the need to revert keystone signet should have happened because it should have been realized before they buffed it that someone could dual humility sig and the buff should never have happened. The time they wasted buffing and debuffing could have been better spent elsewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickmonty

The logistics of balancing every possible combination of skills is staggering.

True, but anet can do things to make it easier on themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Different skills for pve and pvp in GW 2 = uber balance ;p

Why do I think that is going to make things even worse instead of making things better?

DFrost · Oct 19, 2007, 10:47 PM // 22:47

I think post-release skill balances will be inevitable unless they completely overhaul and simplify the current system. No matter how thoroughly a dev team tries to go through all skill combos, there will always be some loopholes that will be only discovered by the creative individuals of this huge community, like for example the 55 invincimonk builds.

Sekkira · Oct 19, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

1. That it'd be better for us players if we expected slightly less skills in GW2 so Anet doesn't have to waste time making filler skills so all classes have an equal number of skills.

2. That I'd really like it if Anet bothers including a skill or line of skills that they put the necessary time into making sure the skill or skill line works and doesn't break things. For example I don't think that the need to revert keystone signet should have happened because it should have been realized before they buffed it that someone could dual humility sig and the buff should never have happened. The time they wasted buffing and debuffing could have been better spent elsewhere.

That's all well and good, but say you make 10 useful skills per line. 40 skills each class (50 for Warrior and Elementalist). There you have 420 skills. Now it's easy to balance each individual one so they're not overpowered alone. The problem comes when you can combine effects to which unforeseen combinations can be horribly broken and game breaking. You can't nerf the individual skills as that makes them underpowered, you need to nerf the skill causing the problem.

When that occurs, depending on how you do it, it can lead to yet another. And even if it doesn't, you need to change up the metagame every now and then to prevent it becoming stale.

The only way you could really balance it for sure would be to make each of those 420 skills single effect. That also creates problems of its own. Especially the limitation of 10 skills per line. Out of 30-40 skills (you wont spread your attributes more than 4 lines), you will choose 8. 8 skills that will work well with each other. Out of 40, that's a pretty small sample and the game can still get stale even with the shakeup.

Winterclaw · Oct 19, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Okay, let's focus on two of the skills that were recently nerfed. SF is a very powerful skill with up to 15 or so seconds where you can't be hit or targeted with a spell. Don't you think you'd have a little asterik next to it's name as one of the spells you should keep an eye on when introducing or balancing skills that could effect it? Yet someone didn't think about it when they introduced a skill that shortened the recharge time on all sassi skills.

Or keystone signet... it doesn't work with all the skills so wouldn't it have been prudent to think "okay what would happen if someone keystoned this signet?"

I think you are right that the devs need to shake up the meta from time to time when we have endless months of IWAY dominance, but there is a difference between that and introducing skills that are either useless or not worth the slot on your bar 95% of the time or are too powerful and explotable from the get go.

Konrow · Oct 19, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

It isn't easy testing every skill and possible combination even in 1-2 years. They have a limited amount of people testing it, while the gamer has tons of people playing so really it won't surprise me at all if there are still balances that have to be made in GW2. maybe not as many depending on how many skills we get and how long they tested, but there will always be something that was missed or never thought of. Its the same in everything that is made. A stupid but relevant example would be Halo 3 maps. I make and test mien for a while, but as soon as i play with others i find tons of stuff that needs to be fixed and etc. Its no big deal that they have to balance skills. What you're expecting is near perfection/total perfection in terms of balance which is just not possible.

Sekkira · Oct 19, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Not dismissing the fact that something should be done about it, just pointing out that the limited amount of people working on it is two.

I do like the idea in another thread about getting the more knowledgeable people of the community involved with it. Not directly, but making edits and such to the templates of skills to be passed on and reviewed by the actual employees. This would ensure the game is kept well balanced yet held firm with quality control.

The shakeup should be done without input the community though, because that's when you can change things up, unbalance things and see what works and what doesn't before re-balancing it.

HawkofStorms · Oct 19, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Why not just make two separate games then?

Edit: On top of that, it doesn't solve anything. You still need to balance the PvP skills.

Keep in mind that they've ALREADY anounced that they will be spliting skills in PvE and PvP for GW 2.

Sekkira · Oct 19, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Keep in mind that they've ALREADY anounced that they will be spliting skills in PvE and PvP for GW 2.

Splitting PvE and PvP != splitting skills.

intarwebs · Oct 19, 2007, 11:50 PM // 23:50

If they split PvE and PvP skills in GW2 i'll be sure not to buy it.

Antheus · Oct 20, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

People will be very surprised over how GW2 skills will look.

VitisVinifera · Oct 20, 2007, 12:52 AM // 00:52

whatever they do, I hope they consider the current state of balancing/nerfs to be an epic fail. I hope they rethink the concept of skills, such that we won't have a repeat of what's been going on since Factions.

I could debate the specific points, but I don't have the time. Just don't lead us down this path again, anet. I'm sure you acknowledge how much time has been wasted in doing this.